Justin came to us from Sony Santa Monica where he worked as a level designer on God of War 3. He is forever extolling the virtues of the movie Steele Justice (and will explain why below) and was the first employee that I got to call “the new guy”. But before Justin got to where he is today, he worked as a tester and almost left the industry to work at Dave & Buster’s. For more on the life of a designer, his advice for industry hopefuls and more about Steele Justice than you ever wanted to know, but should, check out his interview: 

Abbie: We’ll begin with the easy questions. How’d you get started in video games?

Justin: Well,  I started as a tester at Midway Games West which was originally Atari. I tested for 10 months or so. Insane hours, but getting paid. I was making a fortune at that age, I guess. You make 8 bucks an hour but when you get double time, it was serious cash. So anyways, I was doing that and then there was a dead period, there was a lull in testing, so I was just getting tiny pay checks and around that time , my mom was like “You’re going to have to start paying rent”.  I was 19 at the time, and this is actually totally true,  I was going to apply at Dave & Busters because my friend was going to get me a job there. They were paying like, 11 bucks an hour. So I went to my manager and said “Hey dude, I gotta quit”.

And he talked to one of the teams to see if they needed designers and they gave me shot from there. That’s how it all went down. And then, oh, I don’t know how familiar you are with games back then but design was kind of a joke position almost at a lot of places. On some games the designers were actually producers so the producer and associate producer did all the item placement and cameras and stuff. On others, the designers were the artists so there wasn’t a “Hey, you’re a designer and you design” mentality.  That was kind of a new position there.

Abbie: So what did you have to learn to be able to do that, coming from testing? It has to be a very different skill set.

Justin: All I did initially was write docs.  Then they killed the project I was on and luckily, the design manager thought that I did well for what I was asked to do, which was mainly docs and research as all the designers were doing at that point, and I was recommended to one of the other teams, the Dr. Muto team.  That actually was where I first started doing design work. With that it was basically learning Maya; I had never used any 3d programs before, I’d played around with Counter-Strike and Source a little bit, but nothing that was worth hanging my hat on.

And so I played around with Maya and I was actually really fortunate that the tools we used there grew with me. Our old lead programmer went over to be the lead tools guys for Dr. Muto when I was going over there as well. They really didn’t have any tools at that time, so the only thing I had was Maya and what they expected of us on the design side was very simple. So the tools guys came over and started building the tools as I was getting familiar with Maya and I really grew with it. It made everything a lot easier. It wasn’t like I got there and there were 200 ways to do something. It was “Hey, here’s how you place this, you can place these now. Here you can put an enemy down and here’s how you get his path going. Here’s how you put items in a box when you break it, and so on and so forth. That made the whole transition really easy. And our lead designer, it was his first time as a lead; the other designer, it was his first time as full designer so that was it. Three designers, all in new positions, growing at the same time.

Abbie: Where did you go after that?

Justin: So Midway closed down after Dr. Muto shipped and a couple of guys went to God of War and I ended up going to Paradigm.  Paradigm was where I met Mark Grigsby, Robert Gaines and Lew Walden and I kind of knew of the legacy of the guys that had already left,  like Richard [Baker] and Jason [West].  I was at Paradigm for 4-5 years, shipped two games there. The guys that I knew at Sony, from the first God of War, were trying, even when I first started at Paradigm, to get me to go with them.  After I shipped Terminator, which I worked on with Grigsby and Gaines and all those guys, God of War had shipped and they were still trying to get me to go over there, so I talked to them and I was going to go over and the next day I got promoted at Paradigm. I ended up staying, shipping Stuntman Ignition at Paradigm and then I ended up going to God of War after that.

Abbie: You finally caved.

Justin: I kind of knew it was always going to happen, but…but I guess that was when the time was really right and I guess I made the right decision ’cause a year later Paradigm closed down.

Abbie: So you started on God of War 3 at Sony.  What were the levels you worked on?

Justin: I did the opening level. I designed, built and scripted everything for that from the level design side and then the Lead Combat Designer did the actual boss interactions. It was pretty much me and him doing that. But a lot of talented artists, animators, the game director etc., were critical to making the opening level in God of War 3 work. It was a lot of effort from a lot of people. And I did the City of Olympia level, which was the E3 level, and did all the flight sections, so every time you go flying down those, that was me as well. Then I designed, tuned and scripted half the fights in the game.

Abbie: What was your favorite thing that you worked on?

Justin: I’m really proud of all of it. I think that game was awesome.

Abbie: Can’t disagree.

Justin: But I think it had to be the opening level. I think that a lot of people really liked that. Working on something that was very different, the way we built it, the pain of going through figuring out how to make that stuff work, that made it really enjoyable.

Abbie: Do you ever lose perspective on what is working or not working because you’ve been working on something specific for so long?

Justin: Um, I hope not! I think you have to be honest with yourself and get a lot of other people to play it. It’s really easy to get caught up in “I like this, so it’s right.” You get it to where you like it and think it works then you get people to play it, and if they can’t do it…it’s really easy to detach yourself from something when you see everyone fail at it.  It doesnt matter how much I like this or how cool I think it is, if you play it and you can’t do it, what’s the point? Everyone else is going to hate it. It’s an eye opener.

Abbie: So what’s the most challenging thing about level design to you? 

Justin: I think the challenge to me is the tools. You’re always adapting to new tools and new ways of doing things.

Abbie: And that must be the case every time you go to a new project, different studio, different genre…

Justin: Right. This place is my sixth tool set since I started making games. Learning the tools is always the toughest thing. I can design fairly well once I have that grasp on it. When you’re building a new type of game there’s always a learning process. When I went to Sony I was working with 3rd person action adventure professionals, the guys that know their **** with this. And I understand these games because I’ve played them and I know what I like about them and I could probably come up with something kind of cool. But these guys really know it. They know how big a room needs to be, how long a hallway needs to be, in order to feel right so you don’t feel like you’re running too long, how the camera is going to handle this transition, they know the ins and outs of that genre, so you always have to learn that even though at face value you have an idea how to do it. You’re still working with guys that are really good at what they do.

Abbie: And some of thats the stuff that if you do well, your average gamer may never notice.

Justin: Exactly. They appreciate that they don’t hate it.

Abbie: It’s not fair to say that nobody sees it, but not everyone understands all the perfecting that goes into it.

Justin: And you have that with every game. With Stuntman it was “How long to do you need to take to react to vehicles coming at you?” or “How much time do people need to react when they do a 180 or a 90 degree turn?” Stuff like that. And those are the little things that are really different per genre. You get knocked down in a first-person mode, how does the camera handle that? Should the player push forward to stand up? In a 3rd person game: how much knockback does this hit have? If it knocks the player onto this thing down below, how long does it take to get back up to the ledge? There are simple rules that places who have success follow. You gotta learn them.

Abbie: When you’re doing level design is it difficult to transition from project to project? Like going from Stuntman to God of War . Is it difficult to learn to design for very different games?

Justin: Not really, honestly, for me.  I’ve been a super hardcore gamer forever, all types of genres, the only type I don’t really like is racing games. Funny enough since I worked on Stuntman, but I tried to make it feel like more of an action game, like a Tony Hawk more than an actual racing game.  I don’t want to be somebody that just stagnates in the same type of game over and over.

A: Having that variety is important to you. 

Justin:  Well it’s growing, you’re always growing and you can grow vertically, like getting promoted: you’re a lead, then a game director, then you’re studio director.  Or you can grow laterally, which is saying “now I know how to make this game and I’ve learned a lot of things, a lot of ways to do this type of game, and I can apply this and learn how to make other games”. You can get a ton of knowledge that way. To me, that’s more valuable. If all you’ve ever done is learn how to build one type of thing then you don’t have all these other experiences to pull from. When I did the flight sequence stuff in God of War I pulled a lot from Stuntman, the driving stuff and the action sequences and the moment-to-moment stuff like the amount of time you need to read something in order to react to it…So all of that stuff, all in one weird way or another, whether you realize it or not, a lot of these things are going to come back and still be very valuable.

Abbie:  Even on a very different property.

Justin: Yeah, I dont think I could work on the same type of game over and over and over and over.

Abbie: So what are your favorite games?

Justin: Starcraft, Counter-Strike and Final Fantasy II. Super Nintendo.

Abbie: And that’s a very diverse group of games.

Justin: Final Fantasy was crazy. I’ve probably beaten that game 30 times. It was the first game where a story ever actually hit me. For instance, if you go back and you look at the story and the things that happen in there, it’s ****ing amazing. Games now are still trying to get to that level, to me. You got dudes sacrificing themselves, kids turning themselves into stone, you’ve got old men dying, you got…it was fantastic. The music is awesome. I just finished it again on the PSP.

Abbie: Since you’ve been doing level design for a while, when you play games, do you know where all the secret stuff is? Do you look at a level and think…I can see where they hid everything? Does it make  you better at playing other people’s games?

Justin: It probably does. When I play games I try to take work out of it. I try not to play things…at least the first time, I try not to analyze them or look at things. I just play the game because I still want to be able to enjoy it.

Abbie: It gets hard when that’s your job.

Justin: You always absorb the information whether you’re paying attention or not. The biggest thing it gives me, I can go into games and I can go into rooms and say “That’s there for a reason, I know that’s there for a reason and that’s the thing I get more than anything.”

Abbie: You see the logic unfolding in front of you.

Justin: It helps you reverse engineer what you’re supposed to do.

Abbie: So one of the most common questions that we see on the forums is “How do I get a job in the games industry, where is a good place to start?” Do you have advice?

Justin: That’s a good question. I don’t know what test departments are like these days. I know that a lot of companies have large test rooms with hundreds, 200 testers in them and I think the chances of standing out in a place like that are you know, one in 200. Even then, you’re not really close enough to the development team, it’s a test farm, right? You’re here and you’re just testing. But if you can get into a postion where you are close to the developers, like being an internal tester, being one of 6 or 8 people on a team, I think that’s honestly your best choice from a design or production stand point.

Abbie: Are there things you’d encourage people to do outside work? Build mods or something?

Justin: You know, we have designers here that came specifically from the mod community. They’d probably be better to ask than me. As someone who didn’t really dabble in that stuff, yes, I’d say you can’t go wrong with building stuff on your own and showing it to people. But that’s just not the road I took. Going down the road I was on, I was a tester, busting my ass as hard as I could, I mean, I took that job super seriously. We had bug tournaments, seriously, our manager was trying to get everyone to test really hardcore, right? So we had these tournaments and I won every time we had them. You’d get a free game for whatever one you won and I busted my ass.

Abbie: Taking down people and bugs left and right.

Justin: I hit a guy with my car…

Abbie: What?

Justin: He was in the lead for a week…so I took him out.

Abbie: I’m going to guess you’re joking.

Justin: I am joking. But I think really, what it boils down to is working your ass off. There’s no free ride to making games, its an awesome industry and you’re very lucky to be a part of it if you manage to become a part of it. But it’s hard work. One of the biggest things that should be clarified is when we say we make video games, that doesn’t mean we play video games all day. It’s all I hear.

Abbie: I’ve gotten that a lot too. It’s my favorite misconception.

Justin: I say just get in any way you can and bust your ass. Take any job you can, take the shitty job, work on the bad thing, be cool, treat people well, as stupid as that sounds, I know the people I worked with, they wanted to work with me again. People probably didn’t think the Game Director on God of War 3 worked on Dr. Muto, or the Game Director for God of War 2 worked on Backyard Wrestling. You don’t know who you’re going to meet, so bust your ass and meet people. And don’t be annoying. One the biggest things as a tester…don’t be the annoying tester.

Abbie: How do you be the annoying tester?

Justin:  You be the annoying tester by first thinking you’re a developer or by telling people how to use their tools when you’ve never used them before. The thing is, for the most part, developers are really ****ing cool people. Just…hang out with them. Be normal. You go to a new place, you play the new guy role, you’re quiet at first.

Abbie: You took the role of new guy from me, actually. It felt great ’cause I got to call someone else “new guy”. And now you’re nowhere near the new guy.

Justin: I miss those days. But yeah, it’s really surprising how annoying some of those testers can be, especially when I think about what I went through when I was a tester. You’re kind of scared of the team. You’re overly polite and then you see some guys in the same position and think  ”What are you doing?” I’ve been there, I’m not using tester as a bad term.

Abbie: You can feel like you know everything, but it’s such a great opportunity to learn, right? 

Justin: That’s the other thing I would say. Go above and beyond whenever you can. Once you do get a chance, when you do have access to something, spend your free time at work doing something for someone. Ask around, is there anything else I can do?

Abbie: One of the things I love as CM is that I can go around and ask people about things. What are you working on, can you show me how that works?  People are very receptive here.

Justin: I’ve never been to a place where the HR Manager knows what game you’re making and is involved in that process and is excited about it. Across the board, everyone here plays games and is a hardcore gamer. You play games too much though, you should slow down. Play PS3 more.  I seriously thought about removing you from my friends list because your gamerscore is higher than mine.

Abbie: Just so you could be the highest? It didn’t strive to make you better or play more games?

Justin: No, it did but I was like “I won’t have time to do that.”

Abbie: So is that the most compelling reward games offer you? How do you like to be rewarded in games? 

Justin: You know, for me, I love loot games. I love powering up my guy. I love getting stuff and giving it to my friends, it’s genuine feeling of “hey, I’m helping this person out.” That stuff is all great, you know, weapons and upgrades and making my character more powerful. I love Metroid. I love the feeling of becoming more powerful and building on your abilities, like the Metroid design philosophy or whatever you want to call it, to me, is probably my favorite.

Abbie: I’ll agree with you on that. So, to wrap up, we need to talk about Steele Justice. I’m pretty sure you mention that movie every day. I’ve never even heard of this movie. 

Justin: …Which is very sad.

Abbie: When did it come out?

Justin: 1987

Abbie: Who does it star?

Justin: Martin Kove, Sela Ward, Joseph Campanella, Ronny Cox.

Abbie: Ronny Cox! How have I not seen this? Can you give a quick synopsis of the plot?

Justin: I can. Steel Justice is about a guy, a Vietnam vet, John Steele, a ****ing manly name, it doesnt get better than that, he’s in Vietnam with his partner Lee and his snake, 3 Step. He bites people and they take 3 steps and die.

Abbie: So what was his name before someone discovered that?

Justin: And my answer is that he came out biting, right when he came out of the egg he bit someone.

Abbie: Who? His mom?

Justin: No, he’s not violent like that. He was a good child. It was somebody who tried to take him from Africa or where ever he’s from and he bit ‘em. They took three steps and they died. So Steele’s a Vietnam vet and he returns to America and he has a temper and anger issues like so many vets do and it’s really a touching story of…Well, it’s like there’s Rambo and there’s Steele Justice.

Abbie: And why do we all see Rambo when Steele Justice exists?

Justin: You know, very valid question. But he comes back and he can’t hold a job because he has anger issues. He was a cop, but he got fired for insubordination but his partner Lee is still a cop and he gets killed by the Vietnamese mafia. The mafia is run by the same evil general from Vietnam so they’re still all tied together in this crazy, insane plotline. It’s just amazing.

Abbie: Okay, I have to see it. It’s on Netflix streaming?

Justin: Streaming. I recommend that everyone watch it now. It’s a good hour and half…you might have to be drunk.

Abbie: Oh well, now there’s a modifier.

Justin: I didn’t have to watch it drunk!

Abbie: How many times have you seen it?

Justin: Probably 30, maybe 20. It’s like my gift to people…when I’m going over to someone’s house…

Abbie: Everyone needs that niche thing they can share with the rest of the world. And bring joy to people.

Justin:  It’s got so many amazing scenes, like, he shoots his wife…

Abbie:  None of these are spoilers, right?

Justin: There’s no such thing as a spoiler with this movie. Seriously. You just watch it and go. There’s an amazing dance-off in there, Al Leong is in there. He’s the blow dart guy.

Abbie: Of course there’s a blowdart guy.

Justin: He shoots a poison dart at John Steele and causes him to jump through a window. There’s a door right next to it that he could walk through, but he just runs and jumps out the window. The dart gets him and he cuts it open sucks the poison out and closes it with a hot frying pan…I don’t think much more needs to be said than that.

Abbie: From the description of the movie, nothing made me not want to see it.

Justin: I should have added that when he’s a soldier in Vietnam, he still carries two samuarai swords with him.

Abbie: Do they let you do that? I know that this weapon is standard issue, but I’m gonna bring these samurai swords too, don’t mind me. 

Justin: And the cover looks just like Metal Gear, and there’s a shot in there at the beginning when Steele and Lee are standing back-to-back and it’s exactly the scene from original Contra, the start screen. It’s a carbon copy.

Abbie: You speak about this movie with a level of passion that most people reserve for say, Star Wars.

Justin:  This is my Star Wars.

Abbie: We should start Steele Justice Con for you. Also, it’ll just be you hanging out in the conference room.

Justin: Martin Kove will show up! We used to watch it at Paradigm when we were crunching. We’d put it in the lunch room and everyone would watch it when we were eating. And then Gaines ran into Martin Kove at a car dealership. He didn’t approach him or get an autograph.  Are you serious? I was really disappointed.

Abbie: I’m really sorry about that. You’ll have to wait for Steele Justice Con.

Justin: I will. You know, no one is going to care about Steele Justice and they’re going to be pissed that it’s all we talked about. It’s a third of the interview.

Abbie: Or it’s going to make people care. This is how you’re going to get crowds to Steele Justice Con.

Justin: If this gets people to watch it then not even just this interview, but my entire time at Respawn has been well served.

So, I guess I know what I’ll be watching this week. Thanks to Justin for taking the time to let me pick his brain and for teaching me about the wonderful world of Steele Justice!  And as a side note, he would like to thank his mother for making him pay rent, it started the whole thing. Thanks, Justin’s mom!